If you want a base of operation, a SUV is not what you're looking for. An expedition vehicle is. That's literally what they're built and set up for.
A "supercarrier" would be a lorry-sized one e.g. a monster like an EX70-HDQ[0]. A smaller BOO would be something like a maximog or a rally vehicle. There are also conversions for SUV-size chassis replacing the entire back half.
My 32' Winnebago sleeps me, wife, kids and dogs has a 4000w generator and 3000w inverter which runs off two golf cart batteries charged by shore, generator, alternator and 300w of solar.
It has 80 gallons of gas, 70 gallons of water, air conditioning, and giant awning and tons of storage. I carry just about all my tools.
It even has a built in desk in the passenger side dash which I can work remote from using the hotspot / router with external antenna.
I driven cross country multiple times towing my Jeep and taken it pretty far off the grid. Its not an off-road vehicle but you would be surprised.
There are a lot of choices in between mine and a Unicat as well, like a 4x4 Class B or Super C. Some of them are starting to do large 48v secondary alternators with lithium banks and no generator while still being able to run the A/C for up to 8 hours before recharging.
The problem with RVs (as someone who spent most of last year on the road living in one) is that they are built like garbage, with the poorest quality materials and zero innovation. It is clear that no one has shaken up that industry in decades and the incumbents are lazy. The distribution chain has fat profits for everyone. Huge opportunity for someone to disrupt.
I agree, but a lot of enjoyment can still be had with one. My Winnebago cost about as much as a Model X but the places I have gone, the things I have seen...
Its actually very hard to travel by normal car or air now, we just like taking the RV, the space, bathroom and kitchen while driving down the road, our own bed...
You really do need to be handy to own one at this point, it's like a 70's American car. Well the engine and transmission and chassis is fine but everything around it, wow. Luckily it is easy to work on and modify.
I have thought long and hard about trying to start a "Toyota of RVs", I think if you could make a solid, simple well made RV you could dominate the market.
Hymer North America went bankrupt due various finial "irregularities". I believe what was left was bought by Thor. Left a lot of people out in the cold on warranties from my understanding.
Thor planned to acquire Hymer Europe and NA, but discovered the fraud during due diligence and elected not to acquire the NA business (a lot of which was Roadtrek). Thor/Hymer Europe has formed a new US entity for new products. Most of the high-volume brands are a notch down from there.
I agree about Advanced. A notch down would be Safari Condo’s XL Flex and Leisure Travel Vans.
I have a 20 year old conversion van. Lot of space if just two people. And you get a good bed and not have to deal with sleeping on the ground or tents. Have a secondary battery which runs an Engel cooler and a small microwave.
Downside: No bathroom, shower, stove, etc.
Upside: No plumbing to maintain. Lot smaller than an RV.
Do you think you're missing something by not being "part" of the environment while driving? As in, you drive through instead of "drive in"? I only drive with the windows down because I want to be a part of the landscape I'm in. I think a motorcycle is the ultimate crystallization of that.
On the hand, if it convincs you make trips you otherwise wouldn't have made, I think it's a win. I love Road tripping because it forces you to deal with stuff, especially if you're doing it in less developed countries. Probably the most fun I've ever had is driving long distance in Africa. You really never know what's going to happen next!
Never understood this fascination with "crapping in the woods" so to speak. We have evolved past not having to do that yet some want to find their way back to the same old for some reason.
In the end, this seems like different goals - some just want to enjoy nature but not live in any delusion that we need to be more paleolithic to have the most authentic experience, others crave this process more than the end location. I identify more with the former group, and an RV sounds like a better bet for people like that.
I would be curious to know which is the least destructive to the places been to and the environment though. If the RV is worse, maybe that's one argument. But I'm not sure that makes sense - someone who stays in the hotel might end up costing more in resources maybe?
I'm not talking about capping in the woods, just needing other people for things is a great way to experience the world: having to go to a restaurant or store to get food, go to a motel to sleep, etc.
Like poor neighborhoods have so much more community than rich ones because people genuinely need each other to get by. When you're completely independent and don't need anyone, I think you've lost one of the things that gives life its value.
That's fair, but I would wager that countries where RVs make sense (US mainly) is a disjoint set from countries where you have a rich community that's also affordable. If I'm traveling the states by a motorcycle or car I'm stuck with having my meals often at a subway and staying in a super 8 (assuming you're middle class).
I feel the opposite, I have never seen as much of the landscape as through the giant window in my RV while driving. Its one thing I look forward to is just the drive and the stuff seen along the way while having all the normal conveniences.
Also towing a Jeep with us makes a huge difference being able to really explore anywhere around where we are staying and see the sights. I really love Colorado and a Jeep is the way to really see it.
If I was single I might have a smaller RV with just a motorcycle, but with the whole family this setup is perfect, and it seems like kids have really got a lot out of it, they frequently talk about the places we been in the RV and love traveling in it.
Class A diesel RVs are designed for retired couples to drive around the country and live quite well. They plummet in price the first few years and if you're past 10 years old (usually harder to get a loan), the price drops more, often to 25% or less of the new price.
They have pretty beefy systems, with 7kw diesel generators quite common. The engine and chassis will be designed to flat tow a car (or a huge trailer).
And some have pretty interesting features, like tile floors, two bathrooms, in-floor heating, two bathrooms and washer/dryers.
In Canada a Class A brand new can be $400k+. A 10 year old Class A at 25% of the price is still a $100k vehicle. And because they are built like garbage, the repairs start adding up.
I am convinced that if you do the math, it makes more sense for the couple months a year a retired couple will travel to just buy a nice vehicle and do AirBNBs and have no compromise in terms of Shower length, amount of hot water, and other amenities.
Also, don’t get me started on the cost of fuel relative to a normal vehicle. Their fuel economy is abysmal. Think: Russian Tank.
If you just do the math, yeah, buy a fuel efficient travel vehicle and do hotels / cabins / Airbnb.
Just not for me, have done plenty of that and I like my RV better. I can drive 8 hours straight with the kids no stops to a great state park and be chilling by 3pm do it again the next day all the way across the country sleeping in my own bed.
Yes its horrible mileage, I mean I am dragging my whole house with me, but thats what makes it nice too. Its not for everyone but if you like the whole "super-carrier" thing you probably will like it.
I can tell you, you are rather an exception in this mindset.
There are tons of drawbacks in reality compared to romantic idea of 'dragging your whole home with you'. Financially it doesn't make sense. You become a slave of your motor home. It drives like shit.
But far worst for me is, you create your own bubble. You travel, yet want to keep your cozy 'home'. That's completely opposite to why I travel - experience unique, vastly different, exotic places, interact with strangers, other cultures, eat local food etc. Dive deep into the place. This is much more interesting goal of traveling compared to just 'seeing places and staying comfortable'.
You might think we're comparing uncomparable - cruising around rather homogeneous US vs traveling i say South east Asia. Not at all - here in Europe we have such a diversity of cultures that those 'exotic' experiences can be had quite easily with few hundred kms of drive. South is nothing like north, east vs west the same. Every country is pretty unique.
I agree a big RV seems like a US thing and the kind of travel you are talking about appealed to me more when I was younger, but with a family and kids its really nice to go explore during the day and go by to our bubble at night and move on to the next place.
We have seen a lot of diverse stuff in the US and financially, well traveling for pleasure doesn't really make sense, its worth it to me so far.
I did do a good amount of work to make my RV drive better, again if someone could make a simple well made RV I think the demand would be high, its really nice way to travel and see the US.
> In Canada a Class A brand new can be $400k+. A 10 year old Class A at 25% of the price is still a $100k vehicle.
Yes, they can also be $125k. Your AirBNB option can also cost $4,000/night. Picking a price toward the top of the line does not make for a good argument.
And yes, mileage is not great, but it’s not as bad as a tank - a Class A diesel can easily get 8-9 MPG without trying, and a bit of care can get you to see 10-12.
Yeah sorta, its amazing how bad the QA is even on expensive motorhomes. If you are used to buying a reliable modern car you will be in for a shock when purchasing even a high end RV when it comes to the quality and integration.
Get a class C that's built on an off the shelf truck chassis (usually Mercedes Sprinter or Ford E-350/450) and at least the chassis will be reliable. You'll still have to deal with problems with the RV parts but at least you'll be able to drive it (unless your problem is that the slide-out won't retract)
I agree with this statement and I should have been clearer previously. When I complain about build quality and lack of innovation, it is solely with respect to what the RV assembler does with the Mercedes or Ford chassis.
It all depends on whether it's a class-C type cutaway where the cab is built by the chassis manufacturer (so you get a steel cab plus airbags and other safety features), or a class-A built on a stripped chassis where everything but the frame and engine comes from the RV manufacturer -- many of those are essentially a lightweight box on top of the frame and will disintegrate in a crash, and you'll likely not survive a rollover crash. Even with a cutaway chassis, depending on how much of the cab they cutover for cab access, you may not fare too well, but much better than with nothing but a wood and fiberglass box surrounding you.
With a cutaway, the manufacturer takes care of all of the steering linkages, driving controls, etc so you have some assurance of quality -- everything related to driving is built by the company with the most experience in building trucks and cars rather than the RV manufacturer.
I don't know what you get in the $300K+ Newmars and other expensive rigs since that's way out of my (and most people's) price range.
Yeah, one of my friends just bought a brand new RV (I don't know the details), but spent basically a month after purchase getting a whole bunch of QA fixes made, from the minor and cosmetic to fairly major.
They are not lightweight. In the case of many Class C motorhomes build on the Ford E chassis, the manufacturer has used plywood for everything. There are certainly opportunities to build with marginally more expensive materials to make major weight gains.
The plywood mentioned by GP is kind of heavy, and it needs framing for stiffness too. The molded steel used in "real" cars and trucks would be lighter. So would something handmade from carbon. Just thinking by analogy with boat hulls, I don't see why fiberglass wouldn't work either. My parents have a pickup camper the walls of which are made from Styrofoam or something similar. This seems to work; I can climb on the roof to adjust the antenna and I'm fat.
Coach motorhomes are kind of an idiot trap. You're better off with a tow vehicle and fifth wheel. The mileage is better, and you can unhitch and run day trips without having to lift your jacks and unplug everything every single day, then come home and do it all over again every single day. A lot of people end up dragging a car behind their motorhome as a result, when you could just do a fifth wheel and a truck instead and end up with a much easier rig to manage.
The sprinter type campervan setups are a little more practical but obviously trade for space.
I second this. The thing that really turns me off about a motorhome is having this drive train that you only use maybe a dozen times a year but that you want to trust to take your family on a long trip. I'd much rather put that trust (and maintenance expense) in a regularly driven pickup.
Plus when the trailer falls apart, which they all do because they're built like crap, you can just replace it independent of the pickup.
And of top of that you have another engine to maintain.
But fifth wheel is an overkill for most:
For most of them you need F-250/350 instead of F-150. F-250 doesn’t drive as nice as F-150 when unloaded. Preferably you need long bed (not to hit the cab when backing up). With the crew cab this is the longest truck possible. Modern diesels are expensive to run and maintain, 7.3L Godzilla just shipped, you want to give it couple years to get proven...
Then fifth wheel is harder to hitch up and you loose huge portion of bed space. Also bed is nearly impossible to access when hitched up.
Basically, unless you really need the space, go with 25-30ft trailer and F-150 (with 6 1/2ft bed of course, not this short nonsense).
I have no need for a pickup, so I'm better served by a 25 foot RV than an 18 foot truck plus a 25 foot fifth wheel. Plus I'd have to find parking for 2 vehicles that don't fit in my garage, while with the RV I need just one space.
It's debatable whether the truck+trailer is easier to manage than the RV + small car. Though since we tend to take the RV to state parks and such where we don't need to drive after we park, we rarely take the car.
Everyone has different needs, but having owned pretty much every type of RV available, I'd say a truck with a fifth-wheel is much easier to mange than a coach with a flat-tow car.
A fifth-wheel is easy to backup when needed. A coach with a flat-tow car attached can't back up at all.
And as long as you have enough truck for the size fifth-wheel you have they tow much better in wind and handle curvy roads well.
While it's true that you can't back up with a towed vehicle, the advantage of the RV is that you don't have to -- only takes a few minutes to pull the pins and free the car and generally when I'm towing the car, I want to use it, so I'm going to unhook it anyway when I park, may as well unhook it before I back in the space (especially since I typically want to back in all the way and put the car in front)
But as you say, different use cases for different people - if you already have or want a truck (or other tow vehicle), a towed RV makes a lot more sense. But I don't want a daily driver that's large enough to be a tow vehicle and it makes no sense to buy a tow vehicle that's only used for towing.
This is an endless debate among RVers, its personal preference.
I can tell you its really nice having the RV be usable down the road for the bathroom and the space.
I tow a 4 door Jeep which is actually much better for getting around and exploring once we are at our destination than a full size truck due it its smaller size and off-road capability.
Hey quick question, what's your goto RV forum/community? Just looking at getting into it this year and planning to rent one about that size for a couple of weeks in August.
Drawback, they are big. Frankly since I don't have a family I'd rather have the truck with the generator and set up my hammock or tent rather than the RV. I can still use the truck as a utility vehicle to do all my hobby projects and use it like I would an RV. With a RV I need another vehicle. (I'm also sure I could rig a solar panel "roof" to the truck for extended trips).
Holy fuck, $174k?!? How well do these hold value and much does it cost to maintain? If it's $30k in the first year, that's approximately the cost of an Airbnb every single night.
You have to remember MSRP on an RV is about 30% higher than you would actually pay, its more like 120k new.
You can definitely build your own, many people do, there is a lot of work put into these thing and yes Winnebago makes a profit to do it for you. They are by no means ripping anyone off, good luck finding a 4x4 sprinter Class B for any less brand new. Good luck finding a 4x4 sprinter shell to convert, they are in demand.
Rebel provides good value if you consider most #VanLifers retrofit their stripped Sprinters with an additional 3,000lbs of plywood and another 200lbs of subway tile backsplash. Have fun with that fuel economy!
There is nothing innovative about working with aluminum. As a technically proficient person with a shop I would be reluctant to make full cabinetry and bed frames out of the material because things are just trickier compared to wood.
Savvy of Winnebago to pivot their decades of experience in making things light to a new generation.
$174k is bonkers for that RV. It's a converted Mercedes Sprinter, which has a list price of about $60k (4x4, diesel, long wheelbase, high roof, with a reasonable set of options).
I find it hard to believe Winneago adds $110k of value to the van.
FWIW, if you want a camper van (and not a full RV), Metris conversions are a solid option. PeaceVans (Seattle) has two nice builds - a weekender (bed, pop top, no kitchen nor bath) or a camper (bed, pop top, kitchen, no bath). About $65k for the former and $85 for the latter. Using one of these (or a 40-year old VW Westfalia) limits you to campsites with toilets (or roughing it a bit). The Weekender build is available through your local M-B dealer (via an official up-fitter arrangement).
That is pretty neat. But at the same time, I have to say that a F150 is a lot smaller than that. Also, having a truck bed is pretty darn useful if you like to build stuff.
I took our 21" class B motorhome to the hardware store and to get groceries today. It works perfectly fine as a daily driver -- it's a van, after all. Sleeps 2, has kitchen, bathroom, shower, ...
Obviously, the above commenter just needs an actual supercarrier... Which is to say, an F-150 with a generator is about as big of a base of operations you can get that mostly fits in a parking spot.
If I'm taking a mobile home or... that thing... somewhere, it's generally a planned event. Whereas my "mobile base of operations" should be something that's always with me during my day-to-day, but also has a significant amount of resources I might need.
Looks nice. I didn't see a price there, but this second-hand smaller one from 2006 is EUR 350k (USD 390k). Might get a second hand boat and plane instead.
You can find ex-military vehicles on eBay for pretty cheap in Europe. The problem is here you will need a C1 or C driving license if the vehicle is over 3500kg (7700lb) so the resale values are quite low. And I don't want to guess how much insurance will be.
I'm not a fan of the "overland" builds based on LMTV and other medium duty truck chassis platforms. They're really the "worst of both worlds". A tiny RV on a mostly shitty off-road platform that gets horrible mileage. I say mostly shitty because they are huge and not nimble and really not suited for anything worse than a rough dirt road. Way too big for actual long distance off-pavement travel in places like Utah, where the corners are tight and trails are narrow. They also tear the crap out of the dirt roads. I'm not a fan.
I drive a Land Rover Defender 110 and camp in the back of it. If I was looking for something for long-term camping, or to take a family, I would just buy fifth wheel trailer and pull it behind my Ram 2500, where I have a reliable and strong Cummins turbo diesel.
I've been living in my converted 26ft (7.8m) bus for 3 years. I know what it's like having a large vehicle. A fifth wheel can't go where I want to go. A Defender is too small for me to live in full time, plus they cost 4-7 times what I paid for my LMTV.
Every option is about trade offs. For my use an LMTV makes sense.
I've heard you just need to register it as an RV (and actually have a permanent box on the back) if you want your LMTV to be registered without the annual commercial fees. Is that not true anymore?
I drive one every day that is owned by my employer and I'm amazed how many people fork over $50,000 plus the higher running costs just to utilize the truck features once or twice a year, if that.
You can rent a truck for a day when you need it and save a lot of money and emissions.
Right. I read somewhere a comment that you can go to Europe and (possibly exaggerated for emphasis) see Audi station wagons towing horse trailers at 100mph on the freeway.
Here, you have someone who might move their single horse from summer pasture to winter pasture, and as a result, thinks that they "have" to have a HD3500 "dually".
There are a few things that contribute to this oddity (never using light vehicles to tow in the US)...
Speed limits. Americans generally refuse to slow down when towing. In most of western Europe, the speed limit is 20mph lower (give or take) when towing. In order to tow at a high speeds while maintaining stability, you need a long wheelbase and mass.
Liability and fear of lawsuits. My 2017 VW Sportwagen is rated to tow 2000lbs in the EU. It isn't rated to tow AT ALL in the US. There are no mechanical differences that would impact the tow rating. If a consumer wants a vehicle rated to tow, they literally can't use a mid-size sedan or wagon in the US (despite the exact same vehicle being able to tow a small travel trailer, horse, or small powerboat without problem).
Volvo never played this game. The tow rating for small sedans in the US is as high as in Europe. While I don't max it out or come even close to the limit, I hauled plenty of loads with a small S60 and a Featherlite aluminium trailer.
It's been a few years since I last looked into it, but my recollection is that in Europe (or at least the UK) it is normal to balance the trailer to put less tongue weight on the hitch, which means you can tow a heavier trailer but have less stability at highway speeds (which they compensate for by having lower speed limits when towing). In the US typical trailer loading guidelines recommend putting more of the weight forward of the axle(s) for more tongue weight, which usually means the trailer will not sway even at speeds in excess of what the trailer tires are rated for.
In practice, a vehicle's safe towing capacity is usually not limited by the engine or drivetrain, but by the ability to stop the trailer safely. Brakes on the trailer itself help, but the big problem is that hard braking shifts more weight forward onto the hitch (trailer dive) and tends to lever the front wheels of the tow vehicle up, reducing their braking ability and in extreme cases eliminates your ability to steer while braking. A weight-distributing hitch counteracts this, but in the US light passenger vehicles are seldom rated for use with such a hitch. Towing at a lower speed also somewhat reduces this danger, by quadratically reducing the kinetic energy you need to shed in an emergency stop.
Not using your vehicles to the limit of it's capacity is one of the ways your signal that you're upper middle class.
Think of the stereotypes that plywood falling out of the bed of a 2010 Tacoma evokes vs the stereotypes that plywood strapped to the roof of a 2010 Crown Victoria evokes.
All countries in Europe except Germany have a general speed limit, most around 80mph. Towing a trailer has even lower speed limits, for example in Germany the max legal speed while towing a trailer of any size is 50mph, even on the Autobahn.
This in combination with beefier rear frames on euro car models (and no truck sales this would cannibalize) results in a higher towing capacity rating. It is much more common to have a utility trailer for the 3-4 times a year you would need it.
In reality people go up to 60-65mph with a decent trailer, that is about 100km/h.
I’ve been overtaken by a horsetailer doing a bit over 100mph. I do believe it was a Porsche suv doing the pulling tho. This was in Denmark.
Back when I was young and reckless my old Peugeot sedan was pretty stable doing around that speed with a flatbed dual axle trailer.
The horse trailer probably didn't contain a horse at the time. They're very useful for hauling all sorts of things, most of which are lighter than horses.
Buying anything other than a minimal sedan, minivan, or small suv goes beyond practicality and into emotionality for most people. I don't see a big difference between owning a uselessly oversized truck, a luxury sedan, or a sports car. They are all bad for your wallet, and bad for the environment. I think that trucks are exceptional because people who can't afford them convince themselves that they "need" them.
I just bought one for offroad travel on weekends and maybe some overlanding. It’s completely impossible to rent a capable offroad rig for multi day trips and buying one is really the only option.
The space thing is why I've always punted and bought full sized vans. Downside very limited availability of AWD or 4X4 vans in the US. Yes you can pay through the nose for an after market one.
I went the full size truck route because of the offroad capabilities and the ability to transport things in the bed (with shell) that you wouldn’t necessarily want in the cabin: second battery, porta potty, propane tank, jerry cans, fridge, ...
The week after I bought my odyssey I stuffed a 1500 pound playset into it and took it home. Huge cargo space. We've beaten the crap out of it for 7 years without a single hiccup. Still in great shape.
I had a coworker who daily drove a dodge caravan. If anyone gave him crap about it, this was pretty much the answer he gave. He was especially proud that a full size sheet of plywood could lay flat in the back.
Environmental issues are one thing, your own situation, needs, comfort and enjoyment are other factors.
Individually it won't make much of a difference, if it's about climate change or CO2 reduction you need a national plan and billions of investments in e.g. getting rid of coal power or discouraging energy waste on e.g. bitcoin.
A "supercarrier" would be a lorry-sized one e.g. a monster like an EX70-HDQ[0]. A smaller BOO would be something like a maximog or a rally vehicle. There are also conversions for SUV-size chassis replacing the entire back half.
[0] https://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDQ-MANTGA6x6.php